Delusions?
Continuing with the conversation concerning meetings, some thoughts have been stirring in me. I'll pose them in the form of questions, trusting that they may provoke some thought and insight that will be constructive in working our way through this maze of Christianity as we have known it.
Are the structured meetings that are so common in traditional Christianity misleading people? In other words, are they delusional?
Is it understood that the more one participates in these meetings, the more spiritually mature he/she will become? I believe this question has been profoundly answered by the Reveal study done by Willow Creek. Their findings have now been documented as showing that the problem is not unique to Willow Creek, but is common to churches across the board: participation in church meetings and programs doesn't produce maturity.
So the question: Why do we continue with something that bears little or no fruit? And in doing so, are we deceiving people, causing them to believe something that is false - that their faithful attendance will result in maturity?
Can Jesus apply the words of Isaiah to his people today as he did in the first century?
"You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; And you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes, lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return and I should heal them" (Matthew 13:14-15).
Are the structured meetings that are so common in traditional Christianity misleading people? In other words, are they delusional?
Is it understood that the more one participates in these meetings, the more spiritually mature he/she will become? I believe this question has been profoundly answered by the Reveal study done by Willow Creek. Their findings have now been documented as showing that the problem is not unique to Willow Creek, but is common to churches across the board: participation in church meetings and programs doesn't produce maturity.
So the question: Why do we continue with something that bears little or no fruit? And in doing so, are we deceiving people, causing them to believe something that is false - that their faithful attendance will result in maturity?
Can Jesus apply the words of Isaiah to his people today as he did in the first century?
"You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; And you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes, lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return and I should heal them" (Matthew 13:14-15).
Carm,
I'd like to know why in this blog you focus so much on Traditional Christianity? Is anyone here participating in Traditions? I thought all of the participants here were beyond that? Aren't we all disciples like Jesus. Daily seeking his kingdom, seeking his presence, keeping our eyes open for the lost, ministering to those in prison, praying for the sick, just as Mike said.
So whats all the focus on traditional church for? As Tony Soprano says "Fo Git About It"
From what I understand, every one this blog has graduated from tradition and actively pursuing walking the narrow path and is probably why were not on here so much because out there joining Him in what He's doing. Aren't we?
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Terry, point well taken. However, there are people that I personally know and have talked with who read this blog who are still involved with the traditional church. They seldom make comments here, so it may appear that only the small circle that most frequently comments are the only readers, but there are more out there than just us.
Thanks for the comment, and I'll try to address some issues that would be more pertinent to those no longer involved with the traditional church.
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I stand corrected. Thank you Carm
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Terry, When thinking about this I was reminded of the scripture concerning His healing our land and the admonition about HIS PEOPLE turning from THEIR wicked sins. Isn't there both a need to prophetically confront the institution where it so grieves our Lord and to call it to repentance---that is "changing the way it operates"?
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Ron,
Since you asked
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Man, I turn my back for a month and get way behind!
Going back to your post on scriptural interpretation and plucking from it this quote: "If something as basic as salvation is skewed, how much is the rest of our theology twisted to the extent that it bears little or no resemblance to the truth of Scripture?"
I would have to answer your question: "
Are the structured meetings that are so common in traditional Christianity misleading people? In other words, are they delusional?" in the affirmative, in part. If the message is corrupted, however it got that way, it seems a ruinous necessity that the message stay the course else sacrifice the meeting's very foundation.
When I first came upon the REVEAL study's results and then discerned Willow creeks response/reaction to them I was flabbergasted. There the answer was and it regressed into an enormous exercise in missing the point.
The similarities between the current significant socio-political upheaval and change our nation is convulsing through and that of the church seem very similar in this way; It all seems part of the same storyline yet bondage and loss of liberty is being perceived by many in our culture as being overturned and remedied by our government when it is actually waning; And for the "church" bondage and fear seems to be perceived as about to overcome them at the dawn of their greatest freedom!
A magnificent twist of reality and perception neither seeming what it is.
At least that's how it looks from here inside the catacombs of my mind.
Regards,
Mark
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Hi Carm,
One of the more interesting side-effects of this blog is that it continually and randomly updates me on the church Stateside and, since here in SA we usually lag the west by a year or two, what might be coming our way just now. What I’m talking about specifically was the casual mention of the words “Reveal” and “Willow Creek.” After Google-ing the words, I came up with what all of you already know and likely in more detail than I do.
It was interesting to hear Hybels say that one of the results of their survey was what people most wanted was not bigger screens and trendier music; it was to be challenged to higher levels of devotion to Christ. An increasing number of Christians may find mega churches attractive but I believe the issue has more to do with switching to a passive/entertainment mode of church than growing either it or disciples, but it doesn’t answer their deepest longing.
One might be tempted to think that the issue wouldn’t be relevant to the church in Africa, but it is. Although we are both first world and third world, the mega-church scene has made an appearance even if it is not always recognized as such. Many churches meet in large passive gatherings where the average person attending has no opportunity to ask questions or dialogue and where even mid-week home cells expect and receive passive acceptance whatever has been preached… not that it always affects life during the week.
Our missionary position today is more like Acts 17, not Acts 2, however, most Christians find it difficult to step into the religious perspective of those around them and enter into a dialogue that leaves their hearers saying, “Let’s do this again, we’d like to hear more.” We must find ways to engage our contexts without relying on experts; and methods of church growth that aren’t reliant on cannibalizing each other. And let me say we’re finding small, relational groups harder to do than to chat about because it involves more than a once a week meeting with a group of people who want to meet more than once a week.
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EMC,
Your exactingly right when you said"And let me say we’re finding small, relational groups harder to do than to chat about because it involves more than a once a week meeting with a group of people who want to meet more than once a week."
That is where the Cross works the deepest, that is, in the small devoted relationships where we are vulnerable and exposed in our weaknesses and shortages. In large groups you can hide your sin and suppress your sorrows and hide under a happy face all the while inwardly begging for someone to help you but being too ashamed to ask. After all no one really knows you except your wife.
In a small group your out in the open for all to see and love MUST cover (not enable) a multitude of sins and shortages. That is why Apostle Paul was constantly exhorting the believers in these small communities to love one another, be kind to one another, be tenderhearted and preferring one another greater that yourself. The Cross was doing its work and this requires patience and love for all who are a part of this local church which is His body.
We love to dialog about small communities of believers who gloriously gathering in a living room but once the "excitement" wears off, the Cross turns into a Samurai sword and then Mercy must prevail against judgment because if it doesn't we will devour each other.
Thanks,
JB
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Amen
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I think we are misleading people by telling them that attending meetings makes them mature spiritually. I've known people who come to church every week and praise with the best of them, but are abusive to their wives or as unfriendly as can be. It matters more how you live every day , how you stay intimate with God every day , and how you treat people everyday. I think people need a deep personal relationship with God that comes from time alone with Him, and real , authentic fellowship with other believers where you can truly know each other and be known by each other in an atmosphere of love and acceptance. Without these in your life , not much growth will occur.
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AMEN!!!!!!!
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