Wells and Fences
Frost and Hirsch in their book The Shaping of Things to Come use the huge cattle ranches of the Australian Outback to illustrate the difference between two perspectives: viewing people as Christian and non-Christian or Christian and not-yet-Christian.
Many farms fence in their livestock, clearly delineating which is in and which is out (Christian - non-Christian). But fencing is not practical on the vast cattle ranches of the Outback. So wells are dug whereby the cattle stay close to where they can get water. This is more of a picture of Jesus and his followers. He had his twelve, but there were many more who gravitated to Jesus in varying degrees. So it probably was a lot fuzzier trying to figure out who was in and who was out. One that appeared to be "in" of the "elite twelve" we know now was one that was far off. Then there were the 70 that Jesus sent out. What about the many women that followed him? How about the people he touched and ministered to? What about the Samaritans of Sychar? How about the 500 that he appeared to after his resurrection? Where were all of these on the spectrum?
It seems that Jesus functioned from the metaphor of the well. No fences, just living water that drew people to him. Would we be more effective functioning from Jesus perspective that didn't categorize people as in or out but seeing people as on a continuum in relation to Jesus?
Many farms fence in their livestock, clearly delineating which is in and which is out (Christian - non-Christian). But fencing is not practical on the vast cattle ranches of the Outback. So wells are dug whereby the cattle stay close to where they can get water. This is more of a picture of Jesus and his followers. He had his twelve, but there were many more who gravitated to Jesus in varying degrees. So it probably was a lot fuzzier trying to figure out who was in and who was out. One that appeared to be "in" of the "elite twelve" we know now was one that was far off. Then there were the 70 that Jesus sent out. What about the many women that followed him? How about the people he touched and ministered to? What about the Samaritans of Sychar? How about the 500 that he appeared to after his resurrection? Where were all of these on the spectrum?
It seems that Jesus functioned from the metaphor of the well. No fences, just living water that drew people to him. Would we be more effective functioning from Jesus perspective that didn't categorize people as in or out but seeing people as on a continuum in relation to Jesus?
Jay Pathak makes a similar argument on bounded set (either in or out) vs center set (what direction are you heading). Using verses such as Matt 21:31 "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the Kingdom of God ahead of you (the religous leaders)". Pathak argues what's important is the direction of your life. Are you "in" because at one point in your life you prayed the prayer? Or because you can answer some true/false questions correctly on doctrine? Or is the direction of your life most important, what are you living more for every day? On a similar note, CS Lewis writes "The world does not consist of 100% Christians and 100% non-Christians. There are people (a great many of them) who are slowly ceasing to be Christians but still call themselves by that name: some of them are clergymen. There are other people who are slowly becoming Christians though they do not yet call themselves so. There are people who do not accept the full Christian doctrine about Christ but who are so strongly attracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense than they understand." Mere Christianity 208.
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Well said Rob
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Hi Rob, pleased to meet you. Hi Terry. Hope you are "well"; no pun intended.
Uh, here comes another tyrade: Carm's hitting buttons and the pin balls are flying.
Concerning your remarks; I sorta agree but what about our wedding garments? What about Jesus coming as a thief in the night? What about those who presented their ministries to Jesus and He tells them He never knew them?
As far as when I was actually saved, I agree with Rob. Seems like that was a process too. I'm on a rock right now called the fear of God. It's not paralyzing but certainly allows God to be God and Mike to be thirsting to be like Him. So far, being like Him includes knowing when to speak and how to speak at which my gae is helping me with. You might be wishing I was quiet now. Blame Carm.
I'm not afraid of God but I'm not about to touch the ark of the covenant the wrong way if you know what I mean.
The earth is ripe for harvest, sin is ripe. I love Carm's well metaphor because it gives us the freedom to gather in 2 or 3 or 500 or 10,000. It's a well if Jesus is there.
I'm not arguing. I'm concerned about the author Rob quoted. He doesn't know , he's just thinking out loud. I do that too but I don't handle blurred lines well.
When Jesus comes you either is or you ain't His child. Put percentages in that concept. On the other hand, the thief who was nailed next to Him had enough time to believe. He did not have enough time to be baptized in water but he did have enough time to be baptized in fire. That's a reach but just picture what that human man was going through within hearing distance of the One Who could have used His power to free them all from crucifixion.
Carm, I miss the spell checker you had working.
73's,
Mike
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Hi Mike, Nice to meet you also, Let’s see if I can expound somewhat without getting in over my head or maybe it’s a little too late.
Yes when Jesus comes like a thief in the night it will be about either in or out. Also, I personally believe that people who have come to a realization they are sinners and have prayed the prayer are saved or have “fire insurance”. But that’s not what I was getting at. What I am doing is agreeing with the last sentence of the post. I think it’s more effective to accept people where they are and trying to help them grow from that place verses getting them to fit a mold or religious system. Jesus comment in Mt 21:31 is interesting because he basically says it’s better to have the worst sins and be heading toward him than be following the law perfectly and not focused on relationship. Time will tell but I think I am watching a good example of the “well” approach working right now.
In reference to the CS Lewis quote, I thought it fit pretty well but may just be because I had the rest of the chapter in mind. It’s a little long to post under the comments section but personally I really like Mere Christianity.
Rob
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Hi Rob,
Amen and amen. You know that WE and I mean WE really don't know where WE are exactly in God. (Remember- if you are hanging out with Terry I know you already understand me). Anyway, I say amen to your reply to me and thank you.
I think what Carm is after is really, really, deep and I mean deep, thick, bedrock Christianity.
I don't know how to help him or Ron or you or Terry or EMC beyond where I am. And where I am is where I wish Jesus was but my reigns are being tried and the cross is getting heavier and it tends to focus the universe back up to the shallow place of "me".
We know the Holy Ghost is leading us, each one. I say, "Lord, you have saved me from my sins, now please save me from myself!! Death to self and the self life.
In the meantime what about what the Church is to be about in doing the Father's business?.
See, Ron knows me the best. Man can we fight until we break through some wall.
That's all personal relationship history and love. A price was paid for that relationship Ron and I have. Not sure who spent the most but I'll say Ron did. Man did it ever cost Jesus.
If these kinds of man to man, couple to couple, woman to woman relationships are not happening all over the body of Christ, how else is our character shaped and what condition is our spirit REALLY in?
Ok, Rob is the dentist. Mike is the patient. First patient Rob ever had. Rob uses his training to approach Mike's sore tooth. Rob doesn't know you can't lay Mike back on his broken spine yet to lay him back and take a look.You have to gas Mike first. Mike screams ow. Now Rob knows more about Mike.
The fire insurance metaphor is used by US TOO!!!!! Life can put us in a place where we will be challenged to drop our testimony because we have discovered something else in us that must go. WE BLOW IT TOO so why should we be sneaking up on people to the point where they will say the sinners prayer for their insurance? We are billions of light years from that mentality and exactly where you described up on top here.But..we are to do the work of an evangelist.
Terry cracks me up with "Well said". He has his own blog and blackmails me to read it using that.
If all the people here who are blogging and want me to read it, they have to make it easy to find like Carm has and let me know something they have written has been posted like Carm has. And.....I require one phone call per blogger except for Ron and Carm. I'll pay the toll charge if any exists. Does anyone have Job's phone #???
Faith is all we have. Repentance is a gift and service is an act of the power of the grace of God. (I know faith, hope, love and to add to these virtues).
This group is looking for bedrock.
Uh,,, Rob,, have you ever read the comic book series Calvin and Hobbs and how about those Penguins?.
Sincerely,
Fred Flintstone
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Mike, First off Calvin and Hobbes IS my all time favorite comic with the Far Side most likely in second. You can call but the best way to get in touch is probably e-mail robertmtulk@gmail.com. Rob
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Rob, We even have the same sense of humor in 2 awesome comics. I also like the 3 stooges. In the days I worked in Pittsburgh PA, I would tape the audio of he stooges and play it on the scaffolds at the churches we repaired the stained glass windows at. It kept the crew happy and mystified the clergy.
Now back to business, I just learned last night that Carm's blog can be read by anyone on the internet. Thank you for your address but I appeal to Carm to see if he can remove sensitive , personal entries by us dummies with his blogging software which may not be able to do.
Anyway, I appreciate the fellowship with you already and thank you. Many of my friends can't handle the stooges and even those comic books. They are Laurel and Hardy fans. I was just chilling out with you in our exchange.
I'm going to send this as a reply to you and then write to the blog about something I see. I'll put it out there and see what you all think.
Blessings Rob,
Mike
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