Two Mentalities
I stumbled across a statement that I have now been pondering for several days. It comes from Victor Choudhrie as he is describing God's change of venue from the man-made temple to the hearts and homes of his people. He says, "Now every place that we tread becomes the holy ground. He appointed elders in 'every city' to minister to the whole city."
"Elders ministering to the whole city" is not something that I remember having heard before. Usually we equate elders with the church, limiting their ministry as elder to the church. Choudhrie suggests that they not only minister to those within the fold but to those outside the fold as well.
As I considered this, it seemed to me that this reveals the difference between a church mentality and a kingdom mentality. Ministry and function is primarily church oriented, meaning that spiritual activity is almost always within the fellowship of believers. I have observed this church mentality as the modus operandi of the evangelical church here in the West.
However, the kingdom mentality is found in Psalm in 24:1: "The earth is the Lord's, and all it contains, the world and those who dwell in it." Instead of restricting ourselves to the Christian ghetto, we are called to the vast expanse of God's creation, to minister life to all people, not just those within the church. We are to be catalysts of the kingdom, leavening every segment of society and creation with its values. Yet we have fallen woefully short of being God's leaven in this world because we have functioned from an exclusive church mentality instead of the inclusive kingdom mentality of Psalm 24:1.
How might things be different if we would no longer function from the exclusive church mentality of "us" and "them" and begin to function from the inclusive kingdom mentality of "us". What if we were to see "them" as our brothers and sisters who are estranged from the Father? Isn't this why he has given us the ministry of reconciliation, to reconcile his children to him so they will not have to be separated from him not only in this life, but throughout eternity?
Our perspective will determine how we think, act and relate: in the all encompassing love of God for his defiled creation or in fearful isolation from that defiled creation.
"Elders ministering to the whole city" is not something that I remember having heard before. Usually we equate elders with the church, limiting their ministry as elder to the church. Choudhrie suggests that they not only minister to those within the fold but to those outside the fold as well.
As I considered this, it seemed to me that this reveals the difference between a church mentality and a kingdom mentality. Ministry and function is primarily church oriented, meaning that spiritual activity is almost always within the fellowship of believers. I have observed this church mentality as the modus operandi of the evangelical church here in the West.
However, the kingdom mentality is found in Psalm in 24:1: "The earth is the Lord's, and all it contains, the world and those who dwell in it." Instead of restricting ourselves to the Christian ghetto, we are called to the vast expanse of God's creation, to minister life to all people, not just those within the church. We are to be catalysts of the kingdom, leavening every segment of society and creation with its values. Yet we have fallen woefully short of being God's leaven in this world because we have functioned from an exclusive church mentality instead of the inclusive kingdom mentality of Psalm 24:1.
How might things be different if we would no longer function from the exclusive church mentality of "us" and "them" and begin to function from the inclusive kingdom mentality of "us". What if we were to see "them" as our brothers and sisters who are estranged from the Father? Isn't this why he has given us the ministry of reconciliation, to reconcile his children to him so they will not have to be separated from him not only in this life, but throughout eternity?
Our perspective will determine how we think, act and relate: in the all encompassing love of God for his defiled creation or in fearful isolation from that defiled creation.
Hi Carm,
That second to last paragraph here should be a hot button for many Christians. I haven’t posted anything for a good while but I have written and deleted for that whole period.
I think when God matures a saint they are ready to be trusted with the lost.
Old friends from when I was a kid have been phoning me about old times KNOWING I left them for Jesus.Why now?
That's what I liked about the spirit of the paragraph. But..........in no way can I put any of these people I love in heaven and talk to them as I would a saint. If the righteous scarcely be saved, what is the outcome of the wicked? With these 4 “decaders”, I am waiting on God to move them, woo them, call them but I can’t talk about spiritual things with them until they ask.
The language you used was slipping off the cliff as far as treating them as brothers and sisters yet to meet God. I've tried that many times and there might be fruit, but I can't see it.
They ask no questions, they seek no answers. They just want to remember our former life and I do love them. Putting people in heaven when they are not is dangerous business for me. It's easy to do. I'm OK, You're OK. No, you are being drawn by the father or you are not.
I know your heart is to get us goodie goodies to see the potential of the power in believing in the Kingdom of God replacing this world's kingdom through telling the truth in love with a sharing spirit. A teaching spirit maybe as well. Definitely getting out of that building we are chained to.
However, I believe that second paragraph from the end assumes too much but that's just for us to know and them to hopefully find out. Love never fails but God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
God is doing what he is doing and I'm willing to wait for Him until the end in his "jail". He has done too much for me to do anything but fish for men. I take issue that I am to see people I have known for 4 decades reject the claims of Jesus Christ until someone proves those claims to them with no faith on their part required. Others I have known for 1 day believe. That’s really impossible to assume with your own children and in many marriages.
They have been given a measure of faith as the scripture says but what have they done with that faith?
Now we are back to doing the work of an evangelist which is still the essential meat of your pursuit for an answer.
I'm with you Carm but that paragraph hasn't worked for me. God knows the hearts. maybe it has. but why are they calling me now? Why have I stopped beating them with my Bible? Why did the inmates come to the meetings? For God, for time out of the cell, or for housing when they get out with loaves and fishes. Loving our ENIMIES doesn’t grant them a pass to heaven. It validates our obedience and pleases God.
God wants us set apart (sanctified) yet Jesus hung out with those the Pharisees had no part of. I don’t have to understand it all. I'm open.
Mike
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Mike, I think the big thing is love. Only God can save people, but he has chosen to release his love through people. I believe if we can focus on loving people, those who are going to respond will do so more to the love they experience than to anything we would say. If we can just continue in that love and let the results up to God, I believe it will alleviate a lot of frustration on our part due to a result-oriented perspective. The process of love is something that takes more time than I want to give in my impatience. But this is where I just have to keep trusting God that he will accomplish his work.
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Carman, One time I was sitting in my pastor's office as he was fiddleing with this and that. He did not know nor did I that I had trouble resting in Romans 5:1. Then he put some music on and the tune had these words: All that I can do is thank Him, all that I can do is pray, all that I can do is lift my hands and sing His praise. I sat there in physical pain bu also perfect peace. he asked me what did I think? I said "what is there to think?" This is perfect peace. There is nothing I can do to earn this. I was at peace for the first time in my 21 year old life.
There's more to the story but my pastor and I knew Jesus was doing all the doing.
Well, I built a monument in my mind there. Then that moment in the next few weeks was tested and "it" was gone again and I began thinking "what must I do to get back into God's perfect peace?" The answer was simple. Nothing. That song, those words had power to put me at rest and peace and gave me the ability to let Jesus be Lord.
It was wonderful. Love requires effort and sacrifice and all but who has bewitched us into thinking we must do_________ to spread the love of God to others. We began by faith and in the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If He could save Saul of Tarsus to the uttermost , he can save anyone.
This whole dialogue of all these chronicles of work you have done , I must assume you are sitting in that chair in Romans 5:1 . Then you speak. "Write". Right? So then it seems when we don't see all things under His feet we are compelled to "do" something to make it happen faster. Read countless books, do all that Christians do. Why not do that without blaming this culture or any culture. Sin is Sin. False religion is false religion.
Steven was stoned to death. Paul was stoned and saw things in the 3rd heaven. God has a plan for us too.
Paul was jailed. He was bound but the word of God wasn't bound.
I'll let this thought rest here, in the love of the brotherhood; the Church with Christ as head and us at peace with Him, patiently waiting to see what he will do next.
Moses blew it here. Elijah blew it here. Aaron and God's people REALLY blew it here. John the Baptist in his pain and bonds doubted here. I have really blown it here.
Jesus is the only man I know of Who didn't use His divinity to not blow it here. He only did what His father instructed Him to do and he learned obedience through the things he suffered. What a Man, what a God Man. What love for His father and for us.
I sure wish I could just stay in His footsteps and not act on my own theology but act from that place of peace and love I had that day with my pastor. Imagine the whole remnant doing that as one. Maybe then, The Lord will give the next thing to “do”. Or he will bring about another world wide move that we all long for. Sheesh, he might even return.
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The *hot* paragraph--->“How might things be different if we would no longer function from the exclusive church mentality of "us" and "them" and begin to function from the inclusive kingdom mentality of "us". What if we were to see "them" as our brothers and sisters who are estranged from the Father? Isn't this why he has given us the ministry of reconciliation, to reconcile his children to him so they will not have to be separated from him not only in this life, but throughout eternity?”
Unquestionably our actions toward the “lost” or unsaved need to be permeated with the heartfelt attitude of 2 Cor 5:20, “Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.” But we must never forget that Christ died in order that we are able to enter into him and his righteousness, - into that place of reconciliation. If there is an “in him”, there is that multitude that are “out”. For them that reconciliation has yet to take place. So there is an “us” who are “in”, and a “them” who are not.
The difference is clear in such scripture as Jesus’ “priestly prayer” in John 17, where concerning his disciples he said, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given me; for they are Yours;” or again, “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;" and “They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world”.
Only “those who received him” (Jn 1:12) or those who are “in him” (1Jn 5:11-12) are brothers and sisters of the new species Jesus birthed at his resurrection. [The term “in him” is used several hundred times in the New Testament].
Sadly, American Christians are already too much in love with the world and the things in it (1Jn 2:15), and we are not to re-enter that life. We all have heard over and over that the wrath of God rests on those outside of Christ. The tragedy is, however, we have ignored our assignment from the One who *righteously* loved the world enough to give His son to suffer to make reconciliation available. We have missed it in our obviously arrogant appearance that we want to persuade unbelievers to be like us, and not Him.
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In the affluent west, it's hand to hand combat for each soul. We can't trust the old Billy Graham results. Why test the spirits to see whether they be of God, (not of Mike).?
"It ain't easy .He may not be my brother."
The good Samaritan parable I think best gives Carm’s paragraph a back door. The paragraph and it's wording and the original author just needed to be understood. Sorry, but the tension of being in or being out will always be there in our guts. I think it's when the power of God puts the other person at ease so we can at least dialogue under cover if need be makes it happen. Who knows what Jesus will do with our vessels? But the tension, the battle, the wondering really belongs to Him. I still can’t phrase this quite right.
Carman, in this culture, this 2nd to last paragraph seems to me what most young Christians truly believe. I face this every day I live. When you visit us here at the beach, I'll explain in detail over fresh shrimp and tuna steaks.
Love you all.
Mike
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I'll beat my breast and not look up and dare tell God I'm like Jesus. I've proved it.
That's when "us" and "them" disappear.
Every good leader learns the hard way to point to Jesus Christ and not himself. Paul came close but he feared the Lord. No "us" no them". The tares are to grow with the wheat.
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This discussion seems to be approaching the subject from two different perspectives - positional and relational. The positional perspective states what Scripture makes clear, that there are those who have entered into the new creation through faith in Christ while those who still live unto themselves are outside the new creation.
The relational perspective refers to how we relate to people whether inside or outside the new creation. Jesus' teaching in Matthew 6 and Luke 6 leave no doubt that to be children of the Father representing him accurately, we must love those who are not followers of Christ along with those who are followers of Christ.
As to the terminology of "brothers" to those who are not followers of Christ: This term is used by both Paul and Jesus referring to those who are not in the faith (Romans 9:3; Matthew 25:40). Basically they are referring to those who are brothers in the flesh, as Paul states in Romans. So there is a difference, brothers after the flesh and brothers in the Spirit due to the new creation we have entered into. Obviously the relationship of brothers in the Spirit goes to a much deeper level than those of the flesh.
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Carman, and Mike,
I had "no opinion" on this article. The previous article was forwarded to me by a friend who has been preaching the home church to me. And I liked that article.
I'm still doing "MILKshakes" in my Christian walk, so grant me some latitude, however, like Mike, my old friends (acquaintances) are not looking, or have come to Christ before me. I would be happy to witness to my brother, a fallen Catholic, let alone anyone else in the world. I do believe the "church" (my Lutheran church) is necessary as a refuge to recharge my batteries. However, I see its failings, its "closed community" attitude and do not like it. I fear the Lutheran church as the other established churches will sell out in the last days. Home churches are probably the future. But there will be a crossover period that we have to be led to by Spiritual direction.
I like the "elders ministering to the cities" concept, and as a wallflower, I wish I had the backload of friends, and the current circle of friends, and a conversing tongue, that I might speak and witness truth. Alas, I don't.
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Bro'Ken, welcome to the conversation. Be encouraged. God wired you up to be the kind of witness he desires with the kind of people that only you can influence. They won't respond to people with conversing tongues. They respond to people such as you. At the same time, God teams people up that complement one another in their witness so that one's weakness is another's strength and vice versa. Again, welcome aboard.
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May I relay a story that didn't have an us and them on my mind?
There is a local tropical fish store whose owners were lesbians. I've had an aquarium for 50 years etc. I bought live stock for ten years between 1990 and 1999.
Their lifestyle bugged me but I was kind and never let them know I knew.
I got real sick in 2000. Hospital, the whole works and they sent me home with meds to keep me from moving too much.
I had a fixation on all the yard work and inside chores and my fish but I was shut down.
I called the pet store and asked them if they wanted 200 prize guppies for free because I wanted to save them.
One of the ladies came to the house. I could barely speak.
As she was doing her job and marveling over the guppies, I said something that triggered something in her.
I said Chelsea, don't you know how much Jesus loves you?
She said "He does? How could He? I said" He loves you Chelsea, and no matter what you have or haven't done doesn't keep Almighty God "I Am" from loving you. Jesus loves you, I know He does, my Bible tell me he does. Chelsea knew I was a very physically ill Jesus freak.
She put the bucket of fish down and wept like a child and told my wife and I about her Lutheran upbringing and the death of 2 brothers and her mother in one year. She never mentioned what was common knowledge about her relationship she was in witth her partner.
She kept saying" Jesus loves me" sobbing for at least 20 minutes. I hugged her and reassured her that He truly did.
Within 2 weeks, that relationship ended, the business split into two departments.
A year after that they split altogether, her partner married ( a man)and now has a beautiful little boy and a thriving business. She even went to Church with me when her Spirit filled Aunt and Uncle came to town.
Brethren, I was not the catalyst. I was a guppy with no agenda with a simple message for Chelsea. I was too sick to even realize the power of that message FOR HER.
The other partner wept when I came in her big store behind the cash register and in a normal volume voice said “Mike, how I could have been so blind for so long? Can you imagine what I put my Christian parents through and everyone who loved me including Jesus”?.
WE sang holding hands" Jesus loves me this I know". There were people in line.
I have no idea if or where they go to church. (They accidentally killed all my prize guppies letting a novice set the tank up.) Their salvation is more important than prize guppies.
So as we ponder our perspectives, God is at work doing what He does. He saves souls and the glory is all His.
I always say "Jesus, You are something else" like I would kid with a friend. And He is.
My mindset is to test the spirits as best I can and try to keep my hands off the lost but be ready. Sometimes as in this case I was ??????
A guppy using agape.
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Mike, great story! Thanks for sharing it. That illustrates perfectly what we're talking about, loving people regardless of where and who they are.
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Carman, I knew that story would bless you and help illustrate our mandate to get the truth to the people. This lady was ready to fall off the tree and repent and go on with her Friend again.
I just happened to have some guppies in a tank and Jesus in my heart. But, I'm still a heat seeking missile on the wording of that one paragraph in your entry. I don’t have to be right and win. I don’t have any more guppies, just a cat and a pond outside.
When the Mormons come to my door, I'm kind to the one being taught by the older one. I don’t address him. Spreading lies makes them an "us" and "them". The Mormon with the most experience usually gets these sentences:
Sir, when you are able to hear me, come back and we will talk some more if you want to. Jesus Christ was Who he said he was and died as Who he said he was and arose from the grave as Who he said he was and..... he is listening to this conversation and knows how many individual hairs you have on your head because he is God.
Chelsea was most likely one of us before the guppies but in very terrible shape. I don't know and there is no formula. Jesus was in the room along with His power to help Chelsea. I know you know this but write it to be clearer for anyone else reading here.
Grandkids just landed. Have to run.
Blessings,
Mike
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