God's American Agenda?
Following up the last post, I want to throw out an idea to be considered and get some feedback. Many look at western Christianity and bewail its marked decline, therefore assuming that God is not doing anything in the West. The end of Christendom in America has witnessed the plummeting of church attendance on any given weekend to a meager 17.5 percent as of 2005 (The American Church Research Project). It's such statistics as this that cause alarm amongst church leaders and prompts skeptics to write "Ichabod" over the church in America.
If we are not seeing the same phenomenal results we hear coming out of Asia, Africa, and South America, we mistakenly believe that God is not doing anything here in America. This is a common error made by those who judge God's activity, or the perceived lack thereof, by comparative experiences.
While people are still coming to faith in Christ here in America, though not in the astounding numbers as in the aforementioned continents, it appears that God has a different agenda at this time for America. I believe God is in the process of correcting those things that are not in line with his ways.
The pronounced individualism in the people of God is evidence of the influence of the secular culture on the western church. The consumption of goods and services by professing Christians gives ample testimony that God's people are afflicted with the same disease of consumerism as the rest of society. The blending of Christians into the culture of America with its bent toward material gain and the "good life" has so corrupted the faith that it is difficult to distinguish Christianity from the American dream.
God is intent on having a people that will reflect and bear witness to the kingdom of God by the life they live. This will be a community that will be in stark contrast to the self-absorbed culture of society at large, though not as a quaint curiosity piece as some sects, but as an attractive lifestyle that many are longing for, but haven't yet seen a demonstration of that will draw them in.
So I wonder if God isn't exposing the foolishness of the lavish American lifestyle that so many of his people have bought into, and thereby giving the gift of repentance to those who receive his revelation. This repentance is seen in the radical change marked by a departure from individualism to community, from consumerism to generosity, from complexity to simplicity, from passivity to activity, from the institutional church to the organic church, from the kingdom of America to the kingdom of God.
Could it be that God is going to get his house in order before bringing in a harvest so that those who come in will not be polluted by the corruption that presently exists in the Americanized religious system so common to western Christianity?
If we are not seeing the same phenomenal results we hear coming out of Asia, Africa, and South America, we mistakenly believe that God is not doing anything here in America. This is a common error made by those who judge God's activity, or the perceived lack thereof, by comparative experiences.
While people are still coming to faith in Christ here in America, though not in the astounding numbers as in the aforementioned continents, it appears that God has a different agenda at this time for America. I believe God is in the process of correcting those things that are not in line with his ways.
The pronounced individualism in the people of God is evidence of the influence of the secular culture on the western church. The consumption of goods and services by professing Christians gives ample testimony that God's people are afflicted with the same disease of consumerism as the rest of society. The blending of Christians into the culture of America with its bent toward material gain and the "good life" has so corrupted the faith that it is difficult to distinguish Christianity from the American dream.
God is intent on having a people that will reflect and bear witness to the kingdom of God by the life they live. This will be a community that will be in stark contrast to the self-absorbed culture of society at large, though not as a quaint curiosity piece as some sects, but as an attractive lifestyle that many are longing for, but haven't yet seen a demonstration of that will draw them in.
So I wonder if God isn't exposing the foolishness of the lavish American lifestyle that so many of his people have bought into, and thereby giving the gift of repentance to those who receive his revelation. This repentance is seen in the radical change marked by a departure from individualism to community, from consumerism to generosity, from complexity to simplicity, from passivity to activity, from the institutional church to the organic church, from the kingdom of America to the kingdom of God.
Could it be that God is going to get his house in order before bringing in a harvest so that those who come in will not be polluted by the corruption that presently exists in the Americanized religious system so common to western Christianity?
Hi Carm,
I think this blog membership should tell their short 3000 chracter way of life and point an arrow on the map you have laid out.
What have we tried? How have we failed?
When did we come in? When did we go out?
Is community possible with computers? We have brethren all over the world.
What makes us think American christians are bearing bad fruit?
How many of us have lost our first love?
What price have we paid (not money) for living for and believing the Gospel?
Who says in affluent America that people don't notice we are peculiar?
It's true God hates sin and He searches the planet for people that hate sin too.
I don't know what you mean by community.
We tried in the 70's and 80's to have such a community and what happened?
Why do TV preachers wear $1000.00 suits and drive Bentlies and have private jets?
Carm, to knw what's in store for the American church may not be realized until we are confronted with the mark to by and sell.
There are people in this blog yearning to be a blessing to others and have discovered living for self is empty.
I'll cease here. Please tell us as Francis Schafer put it on a book title
"How should we then live?"
How many church splits hve we all lived through?
What caused them? The self life? Boredom? Power grabs?
Where does the professional minister get excused from making tents for a living?
What causes aChristian not to share their substance with anyone, especialy the church store house?
How many sex scandals does it take to turn a Christian to bitterness?
How will God mend all that we see?
Why a Mosque at ground zero?
Why hasn't Roe vs. Wade not been overturned?
Shall we go on with unanswered painful questions?
The Kingdom of God should be within each member of the body of Christ.
If I knew all those answers,I would have to be God.
If my people will humble themselves.........,when will we see that?
73's,
Mike
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Mike, thanks for the thought provoking questions. Hopefully it will stir some conversation. Your question asking, "What is community" is a hard one. M. Scott Peck has said that community is hard to define. I think its one of those things that has to be experienced. However, God is doing a new thing concerning community in these days. Great things are happening as seen in the Potter Street Community in Philadelphia, or the New Community in Washington D.C., or the Mustard Seed House in Seattle, Washington, or Zoe Livable Church in Tacoma, Washington just to name a few.
My concern is the vast number of Christians who just exist, whose primary function as a believer is to attend a service once a week. Other than that their lives are pretty much centered on themselves just like the rest of American culture. My desire is to see them awakened to that which God has put in them to advance his kingdom in the earth.
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Good Questions Mike! We never have the right answers until we ask the right questions. My take on all of this is that the Lord has given America over to themselves much like the verses that we read in Romans 1. We aren't listening to the Lord. We have ignored Him way too long in order to create our own version of Christianity. There are are a lot of indicators that are are pointing to our eventual downfall. I never thought that I would make such a statement because I never thought it could happen.It is happening.
It is going to take a devastating blow to our collective ego and pride in order to turn this thing away from us and to the Lord. We are our own masters and until we are broken of this we will continue to see the Lord turn from us and Bless others parts of the world. Why has it taken so long? The Lord is patient. He's more patient and more gracious than our tny little finite minds can comprehend. I can't believe that He has allowed us to go on this long but He is the essence of real love and He is patience and above all He is merciful. I would be grateful if He would deal with us. I want our country to turn to Him.
I say all this with a heavy heart.
Davey Buhl
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Davey, what you're saying is right on point, as expressed in pastor Joe Wright's prayer before the opening session of the Kansas House of Representatives in January of 1996.
Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask Your forgiveness and to seek Your direction and guidance. We know Your Word says, "Woe to those who call evil good," but that's exactly what we've done. We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and inverted our values.
We confess that we have ridiculed the absolute truth of Your Word and called it moral pluralism.
We have worshipped other gods and called it multiculturalism.
We have endorsed perversion and called it an alternative lifestyle.
We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery.
We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare.
We have killed our unborn and called it choice.
We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable.
We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building self-esteem.
We have abused power and called it political savvy.
We have coveted our neighbor's possessions and called it ambition.
We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression.
We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment.
Search us, Oh God, and know our hearts today; try us and see if there be some wicked way in us; cleanse us from every sin and set us free.
He closed the prayer asking God to give wisdom to the legislators in accordance with God's will. But some had already walked out in protest. But the prophetic will have that kind of effect on the rebellious.
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Davey, Carm, brethren,
You all might be working on our whole nation here.
I am looking at what you both wrote and thinking this:
We desire that prayer be allowed in school.
How many of us pray with our wives and children in the home?
We desire living in a Christian Community.
Have we all had "home church" in our homes?
Have we forsaken all the sins that Joe Wright listed?
I don't want to put us under law but under grace. I must be careful now as the law can shut down our first love.
That meeting Joe prayed that prayer in; was it meant to put America under grace or under law? To those that could hear, grace. To those that could not hear, law. That’s Ok, the law is a tutor to Christ.
Law gives sin it's power. Grace convicts and forgives among other wonderful things.
Please straighten me out here. Is America a Christian Nation?
Is current Israel a Jewish Nation? I’m using Jesus Christ and Abraham as examples.
A well kept home with a Mom and a Dad and well behaved children was the American dream in the 40's and 50's in America. A good American lived that way and also went to church. The American dream, right?
The 60's ,70's and 80's were more modern but America wanted to become more secular. New American dream?
Is America a Christian Nation?. Has our constitution been abused which was founded on Judeo-Christian principles?
Did the Israel Jesus taught in resemble modern America? Modern Israel? Is America a branch of Christ? A true Israelite was a person who served God by faith and obeyed His commandments circumsised in heart not flesh.
I'm trying to establish the fact that America is not a Christian Nation and it will never be grafted into God. The Christians living in America are grafted in just as an Iraqui Christian.
Having a beautiful suburban home in Israel is the Israeli dream? Is there a Christian community in Israel? I think if we get this quote right, we will know what we are doing as a body.
"The Gospel has as it's one object the producing in us sinners of a condition that will satisfy the heart of our God"
From the Chinese language as written by Watchman Nee. He was considered as the father of the house church in China and died of tuberculosis in a Chinese prison in 1972 having had his arms cut off so he couldn't worship God with them.
"The Normal Christian Life" given to me by Cliff Cleinhample in 1976 sits with myh Bible.I ggraduated from high school the year Watchman Nee died.
A weeping and a genuine fear of God will start the next revival anywhere on earth.It will be called the Kingdom of God and then we will rejoice again and worship Him in Spirit and Truth.
I feel the "Heavy" too Davey; you blessed me bigtime .Thank You too Carm. Thank You Jesus. Make us one we pray.
Amen.
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Mike, I agree with you that America is not, nor has it ever been a Christian nation. It is just another one of the nations of this world. I cited Joe Wright's prayer to indicate the depths to which America has sunk.
As believers, our first love is Christ and his kingdom, not America. Yet we are instructed to pray for those in authority as well as pray for the place in which we dwell that we might live in peace. Granted, there is a tension there, but I think God would have us conduct ourselves in a kingdom way so that the kingdom will invade the place of our habitation just that much more.
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Hi Carm,
I cited 1Tim 2:1,2 where Paul tells us how to live a quiet and peaceful life in the sight of God and explained the tension when praying for rulers to whom the people groan under but 3000 characters is all we get. Glad to get that many and may I please say that we are not only on the same page but the same pages and rhe same verses. How does He do that? I love the mystery of Godliness.
Mike
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To go back to your important post Carm,I don't think this work of yours is anywhere near completeted in discussion; do you?
1)Many may think we are chasing our tails.
2)Many may be so discouraged that they read but have no confirmation within themselves to comment.
3)Some may think we are just throwing more spiritual grenades at the western church.
4)I know this is just part of a collosal work of yours and many of your services are held but no one shows up.(I use "service" as you-Carm:serving as a servant.
5)Could Jesus be coming now as a thief in the night? How close to that could we be?
6)I heard this morning that our president may sit down in Iran with their president to understand Iran is going to be a nuclear state period. )("Wars and rumors of wars")
Now to quote you Carm from above:
1)While people are still coming to faith in Christ here in America, though not in the astounding numbers as in the aforementioned continents, it appears that God has a different agenda at this time for America. I believe God is in the process of correcting those things that are not in line with his ways.
2)The pronounced individualism in the people of God is evidence of the influence of the secular culture on the western church. The consumption of goods and services by professing Christians gives ample testimony that God's people are afflicted with the same disease of consumerism as the rest of society. The blending of Christians into the culture of America with its bent toward material gain and the "good life" has so corrupted the faith that it is difficult to distinguish Christianity from the American dream.
Carm:What do you see spiritualy and pragmatically as what the "Normal Christian Life" should look like in America?
Are you a "pronounced individualist" by living in your own home, maybe as an empty nester? Were you an individualist raising your children?
Did you take your kids to little league and dance classes (and your wife of course doing her part) and did you discipline your children and raise them in he admonition of the Lord?
Did you go through extreme trials living the lifestyle you led that shaped you into the vessel you are today?
I'll quit probing after this one last question. (You may refuse to answer me here and you have my permission to ask me the same questions.
NOT using 20/20 hindsighi but using the wisdom of God, what would you have done differently to steer away from "individulaism" lifestyle in America by putting God,Family and service to the Church by priority as a snapshot of your lifestyle?
We were born in America Carm. I have no doubt many came to Christ through your influence prompted by the Spirit and much of that "fruit" has remained.
Where have people like you gone wrong or have gotten trapped into individualism in affluent America?
How would you counsel American christians to break out of individualism without breaking up their families, abandoning financial responsibility.
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Carm and Mike,
I guess that we are all learning a significant lesson when it comes to labeling any nation "Christian". There are some christians in most every nation but the governmnents themselves are never completely built around Christianity. Yes, the early Judeo-Christian influence was at the core of our founding fathers but they too contended with those who were followers of other religions and philosophical persuasion.
What we are now seeing is that the early Judeo-Christian influence has now become politicized and the political christians in our country have attempted to legislate our morality. It's impossible and the evidence shows. We are as corrupt as we have ever been and I believe that there will come a point of no return and especially when God sees His people in danger. He is slow to anger but I am fearful that we are in for a rude awakening.
Davey B.
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Ok,Davey I'll just stick to the words"rude awakening'". How many more do we need?
Let's list some involving America-
1)The atomic bomb
2)The weapon was to stop all wars.
3)The Korean War- still almost a hot war- 50,000 Americans killed
4)The Viet -Nam War- killed 50,000 Americans
5)Bay of Pigs-Kennedy Assasination(s)
6)CivilRights Movement- Death of unknown people and especially Dr. Martin Luther King
7)Roe V Wade :70 milliob Americans murdered in the womb.
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Pause: WHat God aware of any of this before the unsinkable ship Titantic went down?- He was aawre before He created the world and made man.
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Roe V Wade killed 70 million Americans to date
8)Richard Nixon goes to China- directly affecting us today. Then Mr. Nixon and Watergate. America wakes up to super paranoia of it's government top to bottom.
9)US Govermnment finds away along with the womans movement to tax to entities working in one family. What happens to the family? The BillCosby show perfect family?- No- Daycare and we see the results today.
10)Oil Embargo of 1973
11)3 mile Island in 1979
12)Nafta- Gafta American Manufacturing takes huge hit ask any Pittsburgher
I skipped many smaller wake up calls but I've onlt mentioned America and didn't mention the Gulf Wars
Gulf wars and 9/11 are dwarfed in 2005 when a Tsunmai kills 200,000 people in one hour.
China loses 60,000 people in 15 minutes.
Wake up calls on the planet apply to America.
Now, let's go back to Carm's title of this section- "God's American Agenda"
America has become since WW2 God's human agent of global law enforcement just to keep all nations from trying to swallow the weaker Nations.
Our greatest moment was from a movie star named Ronald Regan.
"Mr. Gorbachov; tear down this wall"
Mr. Reagan was bluffing. Today the Russians have the space staton and have been handed the job of Space Shuttle.
WAKE UP CALL!!!!!
A psuedo Christian swept into power after an Assemblies of God President has trouble getting people in his administration to keep our books.
10% unemployment in America, drugs flowing into ravenous American appetite, Church folk disllusioned over a myriad of reasons.
God must speak! If He doesn't, then the ministry and murder of Jesus and the refusal of countless billions refusing to hear His voice (living a life of holiness), man wlll light te match that is summed up that the elenets of the earth will be melted as the moon turns to blood and the stars fall out of the sky.
Wake up call. I didn't want to write this here. I wanted to hear what Carm had thougt through when he titled this article. It's OK, but another ring around the rosie and evryone gets quiet again.
I am listening to you who write here.
You are living stones mortared together by love.
Carm realizes he is just a messenger. God has something in mind for America.
Truth sets us free.Jesus
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Mike,
The events that you have listed were traumatic historical events of man's inhumanity to man.The cause and affect of all of those were mankind's responses to what they perceived as injustice. What I am referring to is more about what the Lord will do in response to our self-contrived brand of Christianity. His response to injustice will be markedly different from the moralistic reactions and responses of mankind.
The rude awakening that I am fearing would be much more devastating than man made wars and retribution. When I think about God getting angry, I get very fearful because He is so patient and so merciful. America has ignored Him. We use His name and create monuments for ourselves that we call churches but in reality they are not much different than the monuments built by corporations. I see God's dealing on this as something that we have never seen before. I believe with all my heart that God loves us too much to let us go on like this. His corrective measures should be something to behold because we have drifted far away from Him. I am not thrilled and jumping with joy over the possibility of God dealing with America. I truly am concerned but feel that some spiritually significant event or series of events have to take place to get our undivided attention. Right now we are divided and cannot unify ourselves.
That's my take for what it's worth.
Davey Buhl
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Davey, Your comment is worth the ding of the Lord Jesus in you that you can give life to others. We have to hammer and forge Carms remarks out. They are crucial. We site a problem and know God gives us wisdom and know od loves us even if we make our bed in hell.
Look at Pakistan today. Look at 200,000 dead in one Tsunami and God promised Noah that this world won't be annihilated by water next time. We don't know what God is thinking. We know what He has said but we live by faith, we don't know. America just like any fellowship was born with seeds of life and seeds of death. Your work is crucial Davey. At a young age a lot of spiritualweight was put on you but you were too strong and young to realize it.
You've earned the right of a pointof view,and its worth a lot.
If got said "poof" with a hot blast of wind and shoved he sun within 1 million miles of the earth, you would have nothing to fear except for the lost.
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Mike, the questions you ask would take a book to answer adequately. But in a few sentences I'll try to at least give a surface answer.
I believe the "normal Christian life" in America would be basically the same as anywhere else because it would have as its foundation the law of the kingdom of God - love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself, plus the new commandment Jesus gave: love one another as I have loved you.
I believe we're here to serve and not be served, to be a blessing to others. If we do this, we as disciples of Jesus will be a dramatic contrast to the norm of American culture that is steeped in individualism and consumerism. Both of these "isms" are focused on self, the primary focus of the American culture.
This is such a radical shift that the most effective way of doing this is to find others who have the same desire, thus being a strength to each other in going against the current of the American culture. This is one reason why community is so important: to encourage and help one another to live according to the kingdom ways.
In my younger days, I ignorantly went with the flow as did many of my Christian friends. Sad to say, we didn't know any better. Individualism was seen as a virtue and consumerism was unheard of, though we were all victims of it. However, God protected me from accumulating all kinds of material goods because of the low income that I had. But the spirit of consumerism can still rule an individual even though one is without the money to purchase goods and services.
You ask what I would have done differently. I would have gotten involved with a community of believers that were practicing what I now am seeing and experiencing. But back then I didn't even know such a thing as these missional communities existed. To be honest, I don't think they did exist in the 60's and 70's, at least where we were living. Of course, I didn't know then what I know now, so it really is a moot point to say what I would have done.
Being born into this culture of individualism and consumerism leaves one with a twisted mentality that this is the norm and nothing is wrong with it. I believe that only as people are awakened to the truth of the kingdom and how foreign the present American culture is to what Jesus taught will they have any chance of changing their lifestyle.
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Carman, I've met many Christians that fit your profile of servanthood and a revulsion of individulaism and consumerism. Sure your past is a moote point but that almost means wasted.
Look what wisdom is flowing from the computer you purchased. Look at the unanswered cries you have made in this work. Moote?
Well brethren, what other means do we have? We have done it all from the street ministry to the microphone to funerals and weddings and births and dedications of babies most who have no clue who Jesus is and fasted for weeks and prayed and conferenced, have been abused by our leaders as we abused some under us ignorantly and can literally run through the Bible pulling it all together into one question.
Lord, what do you require of us?
I'm at a loss for words too guys. I say "I love you" but what price have I paid to love you?
Carman, if we are to be all those things you listed and miss one, we are guilty of missing all of them. Just like the law.
I'm saying Jesus Chrsit is going to do a work of grace and love many more times before His Father sees the abomination that He said would bring the end.
Are we united here? Are we united with our wives here? That's why we men are to hammer it out and tell our wives what happened at home. In Christ ladies hammer it out and tell their husbands at home.
God is responsible right now for 6 billion living souls. He loves each one the same.
Franklin Graham,Operation Blessing, the communities Carm mentioned, many of the healed Charasmatics and Pentecostals and Catholics are seeing what we see. They aren't making merchandise of the Gospel, they are living it.
In some nations they are being hacked to death with machetes for it.
Two trees in the garden. I'm staying away from the tree of knowledge. There is no fear in perfect love. I sin, I repent. I fear God. I am but flesh and he can prove it in one severe testing.
Carman, that all you have said become true in our land of America starting with us. I am finished because wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes and famines are here and just the beginning of the tribulation to hit 6 billion souls depending on which side of the rapture teaching you are on.
In the meantime I choose to read here and hope that we see a change and that we start throwing love grenades instead of any other kind at anyone anywhere.
Lord, if you could save Saul of Tarsus, you can save Osama BinLaden.
No fear in Maranatha for anyone who loves you.(But we do reverently fear you, you are Almighty God the Holy One).
Mike
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